Misconceptions about saxophone-to-clarinet doubling

ByBret Pimentel

I saw a blog post recently by a saxophonist who had been called upon to play some clarinet for a big band jazz gig. The post was full of common frustrations that saxophonists who are casual clarinet doublers face in that situation. I want to respond to some of the ideas in that post, but since it’s not my object to embarrass anyone I’m not going to name the saxophonist or link to the blog post. Also, the “quotes” I’m using here are actually paraphrases, but I believe they capture the saxophonist’s intended meaning.

The clarinet is evil! And it sounds like a dying animal.

I understand this is said in jest, but fear and/or contempt are not good starting points for approaching woodwind doubles. Either focus your energies on instruments you are motivated to play, or have an open mind. As with most things, you probably hate and fear the clarinet because you haven’t taken the time and effort to get to know it.

photo, APMus
photo, APMus

I’m actually pretty good at the bass clarinet, though.

I doubt it! There are plenty of saxophonists who claim they can play the bass clarinet but not the B-flat clarinet. In many, many of those cases, what the saxophonists mean is that they can use a very saxophoney approach to playing the bass clarinet—a too-low voicing, a too-horizontal mouthpiece angle, etc.—and make some kind of sound, whereas the smaller B-flat simply won’t cooperate at all with these bad techniques. Truly good bass clarinetists, however, produce a more characteristic sound because they play the instrument like what it is: a member of the clarinet family.

I dug up a fingering chart so I could do some practicing for my gig. Those pinky fingerings just don’t make any sense, plus you have to read a bunch of ledger lines.

Saxophonists are spoiled by the instrument’s relatively small “standard” range and relatively simplistic fingering scheme. But I think a reasonable argument could be made that the clarinet’s system of alternate “pinky” fingerings is tidier and more flexible than the saxophone’s clunky rollers. Break out the Klosé book and learn to do it right.

I’m pretty sure my tone is okay.

If you are guessing, then chances are you aren’t anywhere near it. You need to listen to fine clarinet playing, a lot of it, on a regular basis, or you’re just shooting in the dark. It’s one thing to have the “best” clarinet sound in the saxophone section, but another thing entirely to have a clarinet sound that stands on its own. Develop a clear aural concept of good clarinet tone through listening.

It’s the clarinet’s nature to squeak when crossing the break.

Nope, that’s not the instrument’s fault. And only non-clarinetists get uptight about The Break. Remember, if your tone production technique is solid and your fingers are moving well, then the break is only significant as a footnote in an acoustics textbook.

It’s a 100% true fact that if you play mostly tenor or baritone saxophone, that makes the soprano saxophone especially difficult, and it’s the same thing when you switch to clarinet.

Playing larger saxophones only makes the smaller ones difficult if you are failing to make the correct adjustments when switching between them (voicing, amount of mouthpiece taken in, etc.). Same thing goes for the clarinet: you can switch between clarinet and any saxophone very effectively if you use proper embouchure, voicing, finger technique, etc. for each instrument. It isn’t a zero-sum game where playing one instrument better makes another one worse. You can learn to play several instruments well if you are willing to put in the extra time.

I’m playing flat a lot, so I’m going to get some stiffer reeds.

Getting stiffer reeds won’t solve your pitch problem, and if your current ones are within normal parameters then there’s a good chance that moving up a strength will make your tone stuffy and your response sluggish. Flatness on the clarinet is a super-common problem for doublers coming from the saxophone. It’s nearly always a voicing issue, and nearly never an equipment issue.

If you expect to play the clarinet decently well, you’re going to have to do all the same things you did to play the saxophone decently well: obtain good quality equipment, seek out quality instruction, practice regularly and well, and listen to lots of fine playing. No shortcuts!

Similar Posts

  • Duco cement and bassoon reeds

    ByBret Pimentel

    duco cementSince I moved to the lovely and historic Mississippi Delta about two and a half months ago, it has been on my to-do list to find a local source for Duco cement to use in bassoon reedmaking. I used to be able to buy it at a certain notorious chain store, but my local store here doesn’t stock it. One well-known double reed supplier sells it for $3.95 per one-ounce tube, which is four times the price I usually pay for it locally.

    The Devcon website makes it hard to find information about retail locations, and in fact you have to head over to another web domain to find it. After an unsuccessful morning driving around looking for Duco, I went home and dug up this link:

    http://www.itwconsumer.com/wheretobuy.aspx [update: link dead]

    Select DUCO® CEMENT, TUBE CARDED and your state. The website doesn’t give retailer addresses, but does provide names. I found a store within a half-mile of me that had it for just under a dollar per tube. Read More “Duco cement and bassoon reeds”

  • Playing in tune: five factors

    ByBret Pimentel

    One of the first “technical” things I wrote on this blog was about playing in tune. I ran across that now-embarrassing post recently and decided it is time to revisit that topic since my thinking about it has crystallized a bit more.

    To play a woodwind instrument in tune, there are five factors to address:

    Photo, Shaylor
    Photo, Shaylor
    1. Ears. If you don’t know what “in tune” sounds like, you probably won’t do it by accident. I still like the Tuning CD (now available as a download) for this. Follow the instructions for your instrument and do a few minutes every day over the long term. Sing, too. Electronic tuners have some uses but ear training doesn’t happen to be one of them.
    2. Equipment. Play the best instruments, mouthpieces, etc. you are able to get. If you are picking out new equipment, intonation should probably be your top priority over sexier things like “tone,” which is both more subjective and more malleable. (Incidentally, this is one of the best arguments for playing new woodwind instruments rather than “vintage,” since, generally speaking, incremental improvements mean that each generation of instruments plays better in tune than the one before.) Sure, you can “play” a lesser instrument in tune, but let your equipment do as much of the work for you as possible.
    3. Playing technique. This includes, for starters, consistent and powerful breath support, accurate and stable voicing, and a well-formed embouchure. Even small weaknesses in any of these areas makes your pitch less steady and predictable, and more significant weaknesses can make good intonation virtually impossible.
    4. Adjustment of the tuning mechanism(s). This means pulling something in or out to slightly adjust the instrument’s length, but it could also include, say, selecting a clarinet barrel or a bassoon bocal. Assuming good equipment and solid playing technique, there will be a “spot” where the mouthpiece/barrel/headjoint/etc. should go for the instrument to play optimally in tune at its intended pitch level (A=440? A=442? etc.). Any deviation from this should be a carefully-considered compromise. For example, if you are playing with an ensemble that tunes a little sharper than you’re used to, you can “push in” to make it a little easier to get up to pitch, but you will find that the instrument’s intonation characteristics change: some notes will get a little sharper, some a lot sharper.
    5. Adjustment of individual notes. Even on the best instruments, some notes have undesirable pitch tendencies. And sometimes you have to play a note a little “out of tune” to match another musician’s pitch, to meet the demands of “just” intonation, for expressive purposes, or for a variety of other reasons. These adjustments are best made by using alternate fingerings or by making slight temporary changes in voicing. Be wary of using any other technique, including things like “rolling” the flute or making any embouchure changes (“dropping the jaw”), which are unwieldy and compromise other aspects of tone production.

    Development of good intonation is a cycle of revisiting each of these elements again and again: each improvement to your ears, each equipment change, each change in your technique, each adjustment of a tuning mechanism, and the needs of each individual playing situation may require further refinements of all the other areas. If intonation isn’t something you have tackled seriously before, then start by working on your ears, and be patient.

  • Woodwind Doubler Census 2021 results, part 3: training/education

    ByBret Pimentel

    Thanks to all who participated in my 2021 woodwind doubling survey, and to those who helped spread the word. I’m releasing the results in installments, so be sure to use my social media links, RSS feeds, etc. to keep up.

    I got 284 responses, an improvement over 2011’s 187. The numbers for each of these questions don’t necessarily add up to exactly that number, since not everybody responded to every question.

    Which was your first instrument, among the major woodwinds?

    2021 Data
    flute3713%
    oboe135%
    clarinet10638%
    bassoon62%
    saxophone11942%
    none of these apply1~0%
    2011 Data
    flute2212%
    oboe105%
    clarinet7741%
    bassoon53%
    saxophone7339%

    Which of these have been part of your education on woodwind instruments?

    2021 Data
    school band/orchestra program (high school or younger)26293%
    private lessons outside of school24888%
    summer camps18867%
    university band/orchestra program24185%
    university/conservatory bachelors degree with formal concentration(s) in multiple woodwinds2710%
    university/conservatory bachelors degree with single-instrument or other music concentration18265%
    bachelors-level study on secondary instrument(s), but not as part of a formal multiple-woodwinds program11139%
    university/conservatory masters degree with formal concentration(s) in multiple woodwinds3512%
    university/conservatory masters degree with single-instrument or other music concentration7527%
    masters-level study on secondary instrument(s), but not as part of a formal multiple-woodwinds program3111%
    university/conservatory doctoral degree with formal concentration(s) in multiple woodwinds104%
    university/conservatory doctoral degree with single-instrument or other music concentration249%
    doctoral-level study on secondary instrument(s), but not as part of a formal multiple-woodwinds program62%
    other university/conservatory music degree or certification145%
    self-taught on one or more instruments16759%
    2011 Data
    school band/orchestra program (high school or younger)17594%
    private lessons outside of school17091%
    summer camps13170%
    university band/orchestra program14376%
    university/conservatory bachelors degree with formal concentration(s) in multiple woodwinds2714%
    university/conservatory bachelors degree with single-instrument or other music concentration9752%
    university/conservatory masters degree with formal concentration(s) in multiple woodwinds137%
    university/conservatory masters degree with single-instrument or other music concentration3720%
    university/conservatory doctoral degree with formal concentration(s) in multiple woodwinds42%
    university/conservatory doctoral degree with single-instrument or other music concentration53%
    other university/conservatory music degree or certification126%
    self-taught on one or more instruments11863%

    What factors influenced you first to get involved in woodwind doubling?

    Besides the provided answers, several of you included personal anecdotes of influences including boredom, norms of the early music scene, orthodontia and injuries, career aspirations like instrument repair and studio work, and the Lawrence Welk Show.

    2021 data
    just interested in more than one instrument20272%
    required/helpful for a jazz (or other improvisatory music) group you played in or wanted to play in13949%
    had or wanted opportunities to play for musical theater19670%
    influenced by a teacher or role model13648%
    wanted to improve employability13849%
    an ensemble you were in (or wanted to be in) needed someone to play a specific instrument, and you were willing to learn it11842%
    an ensemble you were in (or wanted to be in) didn’t include the instrument you already played and you needed to learn another4616%
    your training/experience as a teacher required you to branch out5620%
    2011 Data
    just interested in more than one instrument40
    required/helpful for a jazz (or other improvisatory music) group you played in or wanted to play in37
    had or wanted opportunities to play for musical theater35
    influenced by a teacher or role model23
    wanted to improve employability19
    an ensemble you were in (or wanted to be in) needed someone to play a specific instrument, and you were willing to learn it19
    your training/experience as a teacher required you to branch out9

    What sources have you used to learn about or otherwise engage with woodwind doubling?

    Besides the provided answers, nine of you wrote in something to the effect of “lessons” or “teachers,” which I didn’t include as an option because I covered formal training in other questions. A few of you also wrote in “YouTube,” which I have lumped in with “social media sites.”

    Thanks again for your participation and stay tuned for more survey results.

  • Woodwind doubling and saxophone problems

    ByBret Pimentel

    It’s very common for woodwind doublers to be saxophonists first, and approach the other woodwinds later, often because of the demands of flute/clarinet doubling in jazz big band music. So advice for woodwind doublers is often really advice for saxophonists playing secondary instruments. But when players of other woodwind instruments pick up the saxophone, there are some challenges that need to be addressed as well.

    Tone production problems (pitch, tone, response). Assuming good breath support is in place (the same as with any other woodwind), these problems are probably caused by some combination of embouchure and voicing issues.

    As with the other reed instruments, your embouchure should be airtight but not tight—just enough to close around the mouthpiece and reed, with your top teeth on the mouthpiece and your bottom lip in a neutral position (not rolled in or out). A tight embouchure constricts tone and reduces dynamic range.

    The mouthpiece should angle up to your embouchure a little, but not at nearly as steep an angle as the clarinet or the oboe. Too steep an angle contributes to an uncharacteristic, slightly clarinet-like tone.

    Use the paper trick to ensure you are taking in the right amount of mouthpiece. Taking in too much mouthpiece creates a wild, honky tone, and to little causes a stuffy, labored tone.

    Voicing is tricky to get right on the saxophones. Flutists and double reed players are used to playing with a voicing essentially as low as it can go, and clarinetists use an embouchure essentially as high as it can go. Saxophonists need to hit a target somewhere in between. Daily mouthpiece pitch exercises are the best way to train this. Using a too-high voicing causes the thin, pinched sound and poor low-register response that expose you as a doubler coming from the clarinet. A too-low voicing causes a tubby tone, unstable pitch, and unresponsive high notes.

    Fingering problems. The saxophone’s fingering system is in some ways the simplest and most intuitive of the modern woodwinds, but it has its share of problems. “Side” and “palm” keys are among them—they are awkward and imprecise to use, and take a great deal of practice to develop fluency. Similarly, movement between the pinky-finger keys using rollers, especially on the left hand, is problematic and requires diligent training. Scales and arpeggios, practiced though the instrument’s full standard range, are essential. Fluency in the saxophone’s middle register is comparatively easy, but the lowest notes (left-hand pinky) and highest notes (palm keys, especially left hand) are a real test of saxophone skill.

    Style problems. For doublers approaching the flute, clarinet, or double reeds, a solid classical/orchestral approach to the instrument will cover most musical demands. Not so with the saxophone, which is often used in jazz or popular styles. To play these styles convincingly requires meticulous attention to tone, inflection, articulation, vibrato, and other subtleties. Doublers learning the saxophone would be wise to consider taking lessons both from “classical” and jazz teachers, and to do a great deal of listening and study of many styles of music.

    Effective improvisation in various musical styles is a lifetime pursuit, and essential for serious saxophone gigging. Find a good teacher.

    Jazz and classical setups. For saxophonists, playing in different styles sometimes requires different equipment. It’s common to have a classical mouthpiece and at least one jazz/pop mouthpiece, plus reeds to suit each. A classical mouthpiece often doesn’t have the volume, brightness, or punchy articulation needed for jazz or rock, and a jazz mouthpiece may not have the warm/dark tone, pitch stability, and subtle/soft dynamics for classical music.

    Jaw vibrato. Jaw vibrato is a technique unique to the saxophone among the other woodwinds. (Clarinetists most often don’t use vibrato, and flutists and double reed players use a breath-pulse vibrato sometimes mislabeled as “diaphragm” vibrato.) Mastery of this skill takes good instruction and lots of practice. The saxophone vibrato needs to be fast, narrow, subtle, and fairly constant for most classical applications. Jazz players traditionally tend toward a slower, wider, terminal vibrato.

    The saxophone is a valuable and rewarding double, and opens up many gigs that aren’t available to players of just the “orchestral” woodwinds. Give it serious study on its own terms and with an excellent teacher. Practice well!

  • Irish flute/whistle ornamentation symbols à la Grey Larsen, in Lilypond

    ByBret Pimentel

    If you are nerdy/awesome enough to be into (1) the pedagogy of Irish traditional woodwind playing and (2) open-source text-based music notation software, then you may want to check out my set of symbols for Lilypond, based on the excellent ornamentation system by Grey Larsen. You can get the .ily file on GitHub (and submit your pull requests to make improvements to my code).

    Cuts, strikes, rolls, cranns, etc.
    Cuts, strikes, slides, rolls, cranns, etc.

    If you are unfamiliar with Mr. Larsen’s system and you play pennywhistles or wooden flutes, then really I must insist that you buy a copy of his The Essential Guide to Irish Flute and Tin Whistle immediately—his ornamentation system is clear and logical and should be regarded as the standard for teaching and learning Irish-traditional ornamentation for wind instruments.

    If you are unfamiliar with Lilypond, chances are good that you won’t like it even though it’s free and produces much better notation than the software you already spent several hundred dollars on.

    Also, it’s worth noting that Chris Throup already had a similar idea a few years ago. Mine is a bit more complete, but his is really simple.

    Sláinte!

  • Recommended: Jeanjean “Vade-Mecum” du Clarinettiste

    ByBret Pimentel

    Lately I’ve been doing some clarinet work out of the Jeanjean Vade-Mecum. The title page translates charmingly to:

    “Vade-Mecum” of the Clarinet-player

    6 SPECIAL STUDIES

    to

    render the fingers and tongue rapidly supple

    But this is what really sold me:

    NOTICE

    The aim of these 6 standard-studies (combining the essential parts generally contained in several exercise books) is to prepare instrumentalists in a very short space of time (about 1/2 hour) when, due to their occupations, they are not able to devote the time necessary for developed exercises and must nevertheless be ready to execute difficult passages, from the standpoint of lips, tongue and fingers.

    The movements to which these Studies oblige the clarinet-player to submit will rapidly overcome those imperfections, the diminution or the passing weakness that might result from either fatigue or irregularity of technical work.

    “…not able to devote the time necessary … and must nevertheless be ready to execute difficult passages…” This, in a nutshell, is the quandary of the woodwind doubler. Read More “Recommended: Jeanjean “Vade-Mecum” du Clarinettiste”

13 Comments

  1. Great post! I’ve always felt fortunate as a clarinet -> sax doubler… and pity the poor flautists who try to move across! My son has started learning clarinet and wants to move to sax because it seems cooler, but I’m insisting he develop a decent clarinet technique first.

    Reply

  2. I’m also a Bflat clarinet -> soprano/alto/tenor sax doubler. I find each instrument is different and demands its own time. I think the time I spend on tenor sax actually helps my clarinet tone through learning to put more air through the instrument. One of the hardest things about a Bflat clarinet/alto sax double is changing embouchures on the fly. Terrible things happen if I accidentally play alto sax with a clarinet embouchure OR clarinet with an alto embouchure.

    At the moment I’m focusing on soprano sax. Soprano is fun to play, but aside from the fingerings it doesn’t seem much like anything else, not even the other saxes.

    Instrument doubling is much like playing different musical styles. I play both jazz and classical clarinet. I have to practice each of them and remember which I’m playing, otherwise my Mozart will have scoops and vibrato and my jazz will be boring.

    Reply

  3. Great post. Before i retired, I was a bassoon/contrabassoonist, who picked up a little extra as a sideman, playing bari sax, clarinet & bass clarinet.

    You’re absolutely right that each instrument must be practiced within its own parameters. The techniques, while similar, are NOT identical.

    It was great fun while it lasted. :)

    Reply

  4. I’m currently finding it hard to go from alto saxophone to Bb Clarinet.
    I started off as a flute player for 3 years, then I taught myself alto saxophone for about a year, from thence I played baritone saxophone for 3 years, and now I am back at alto saxophone for 4 years now. I’m attempting to teach myself Bb Clarinet, but I’m finding it very difficult. I’ve tried pinching the corners of my mouth, taking in different amounts of the mouthpiece, angling my air a little bit, and nothing is really working. I can’t start below an open G, those notes are too low. Any pointers?

    Reply

    2. What is hard and easy about learning the clarinet? I am a sax player, have been for 2 years, (alto) and found it extremely easy. I want to play clarinet now, and the thing is I’ve been seeing comments that say it’s really hard to switch. So what are the easy and hard parts? (Just wondering.)

      Reply

  5. Thanks for this post. I found it very useful. I’m an alto sax player and have just started to play the clarinet in a community orchestra. I’ve been playing clarinet for 10 months but only been serious about it and in the orchestra for a couple of months. My peers are sick of my squeaking. But I recall starting the sax when I did wasn’t all plain sailing. I’m willing to put in the work and have invested in a very good instrument. JuSt need to persevere with it. Upping my practice to 2hrs a day.

    Reply

  6. I liked that post ,thanks for it…I have given time to learn clarinet and flute together , this is my third year and so far I have learned that To play the entire extension of the instrument I have worked my whole notes doing intervals alone …it took me 3 years for the flute , 1 year and 3 months for clarinet , coming from the european Saxophone school I took the Zen approach towards these 2 instruments and have learned so far that breathing is the secret ,second is the tongue…the rest are fingers with Klose and marcel moyse ,quantz….

    Reply

  7. I started with flute, fooled around with oboe, and then learned clarinet, which is now my primary instrument. I picked up an old student bass clarinet just for fun, but then on a whim bought a refurbished student alto sax. I was shocked that I could actually play the sax (though not with great tone) the first time I tried it. I feel like playing multiple instruments improves my overall musicianship, but I don’t have as much time to devote to practicing each one. It’s a trade off.

    Reply

  8. I mean I get that if you mainly play the alto saxophone, you’re only used to reading the ledger line notes up to F and down to C, but that’s something you can learn and practice easily by reading/Identifying more of those notes. If you’re gonna play Bass Clarinet/Tenor sax/Soprano Sax then you’re heading straight towards more of those ledger line notes. An embouchure is something you can adapt to when switching between instruments. Bass Clarinet to me just looks like a super long version of a tenor saxophone, while a Bb clarinet looks like a soprano sax. I started off with the Alto sax, then got trombone, then trumpet and then soprano sax and now planning on Baritone sax. It didn’t take that long to adjust to the soprano sax at all. (We’re not gonna talk about trumpet, it’s unbearable and Trombone is not what I’m focused on right now.) And with the S. Sax I get some time to read flute and Bb clarinet music as well and trumpet music. (In High school right now) Oh yea and personally, 2 hrs a day isn’t enough if you’re playing multiple instruments unless you literally don’t have more than 2 hrs of free time a day. I’m going to try the Bb Clarinet to see what all this squeaking you speak of. I feel like it’s a beautiful sounding instrument.

    Reply

  9. I have been playing alto saxophone for about 2 years now, but I want to play clarinet in my band. I’m a little scared to start, because everyone is saying it’s extremely difficult to go from sax to clarinet…any tips?

    Reply

  10. I am an alto saxophonist, have been for 2 years. Found this article very interesting! I am going to switch to clarinet in about one week, but I’ve been seeing it’s supposedly extremely difficult to switch..? Any tips? I’m a little intimidated now.

    Reply

  11. I played the B# Clarinet for ten years, from 3rd through 12th, also played the Bass Clarinet, Tenor/Bari Saxophone. I always wanted to play the Soprano Saxophone and now I’m getting one. It has been 23 years since I picked up an instrument. I’m playing for personal use and for my church one day. Any suggestions?

    Reply

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

Comments that take a negative or confrontational tone are subject to email and name verification before being approved. In other words: no anonymous trolls allowed—take responsibility for your words.

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.