I gave a presentation at last week’s Mid-South Flute Festival on blogging as a means for enhancing a performing/teaching career. The handout says “flute” on it, but I think the advice really is pretty generally applicable.
I very much appreciate this brief article by trumpet player Jeff Purtle: Why Do Musicians Charge? [Edit: article no longer exists, but see the video in Mr. Purtle’s comment below.] Mr. Purtle makes the point that it costs a lot of money to be a musician. This is painfully true for woodwind doublers, who need not only a large number of high-quality instruments, but also reeds, maintenance and repairs, insurance, stands, cases, and more for each instrument, not to mention the cost of lessons or even college or conservatory study.
I think the overhead costs of being an instrumentalist are a really important and valid point. But I do think are some more reasons why musicians should expect to be compensated fairly for what they do: Read More “Why musicians cost money”
Sarah Cosano is a busy working woodwind player (among other things). I initially reached out to Sarah about doing an interview because I was interested in her experiences with playing on cruise ships, but it turns out her musical experiences are quite varied. In 2000, Sarah was an MTNA National Competition winner, a featured performer on the NPR radio show From the Top, and an Emerson Scholar at the Interlochen Arts Camp. Since then she has performed with the Disneyland All American College Band, BLAST: Music in Xtreme, and the show Evolutionin Japan. Her cruise ship playing has taken her around the world (Russia, Estonia, Fiji, New Zealand, Iceland, and the Caribbean). She is a bandleader, a freelancer, an educator, and a doctoral student in saxophone at the University of Nebraska–Lincoln. Sarah was kind enough to answer some questions about her career thus far. Read to the end for a video of Sarah doing her thing on flute, and be sure to check out her website for more performances.
I grew up in a small town in rural Idaho, and really the only music I knew was through competitions. (My graduating class was 8 people, so band programs were non-existent!) My teacher kept me motivated by entering me in competitions. I loved the dedication it required to make pieces as perfect as possible.
When I got into school at Duquesne in Pittsburgh, I was elated! Little did I know how much my life would change. Living in a larger city made it very clear to me that I didn’t have gig-worthy skills even when I was practicing 3+ hours a day. By the time I finished my undergraduate degree as a performance major, I knew something was missing. I moved back home and spent a few years working day jobs, saving up for instruments, and taking lessons on doubling and jazz. A couple of years later, I was on ships as a showband musician.
Since then, my career has been eclectic. I love the university environment, the constant challenge to become better and all the available information. At the same time, I believe the “real world” deserves respect. It’s hard and unforgiving, and that’s what makes it great. I would say so far my life has been equal parts school and career musician. Between each degree I have taken a few years off to tour and try to balance my academic knowledge with the practical. I don’t regret one second of it.
What education (formal or otherwise) and experience prepared you for what you do?
Classical training is definitely useful for some things: technique, rhythm, tuning, and the basics of musicianship. I took lessons on each instrument from great teachers (clarinet lessons from a clarinet professor, etc.). The downside to the college education system is, often there is an expectation for virtuosic technique in just one skill set. That can inhibit students because they feel they don’t have time to diversify. And I think deep down we sometimes are afraid to be bad at something again.
When I started gigging, I had to pick up skills from all kinds of sources. You never know what you can learn from someone, even non musicians. As a lounge singer on Celebrity, I got commentary about how I switch the microphone a lot while I sing (point taken/fixed!). When I played in a funk band, they wanted simple solos with more soul. I learned about networking, and really being a team player (for example, when you’re a sideman, your primary job is to meet the goals of the person who hired you). Even the showbiz aspect was picked up out there: learning how to create an environment and collaborate with other artists to create an interesting product.
If you could do it over, is there anything you would have done differently to prepare for your current pursuits?
Every step of the way, I have been really honest with myself. If I am doing a gig and feel that I am not being challenged enough, then I take it upon myself to find where the next step is for me. So with whatever knowledge I had at that point, I took it as far as I could. That translated to a lot of change in the past 10 years.
Some would say it can also be a weakness, because I find myself getting to a certain level and then losing interest. It’s fun for me to pick up something completely new because the progress is so noticeable in the early stages. Where I am now, I wish I had taken some voice lessons and worked on double reeds so I’d be further along at this point, but I’m doing that now, so I don’t have regrets. Nobody plowed this path for me—I really had to work for it and I’m proud of that.
Side note: I think it’s important to assess where you are regularly. I feel that jealousy and dissatisfaction can be healthy because we see that we need to stretch again, to make a change in our own life. We just have to keep pushing forward.
What effects did youth/student-oriented music experiences like Interlochen, MTNA, From the Top, and the Disneyland All-American College Band have on your career development?
You know, these were all different phases in my life. Competitions like MTNA are like musical Mount Everest. You have to do the opposite of woodwind doubling and focus on one main goal. The pieces need to be perfect. You have to be able to hear the music like your own voice, becoming one with it and committing if you want to win these things. It taught me how much deeper I could reach into the heart of one piece. But it takes everything. I don’t know if I could compete at that level with all the things I balance right now. I remember that Interlochen had chair challenges, where you would challenge the person above you every week in band. No slacking if you don’t want to be last chair!
Competitions really have instilled in me a sense of how big the world is. Even if you are the top player in your school or town, there is someone out there who can run circles around you. I think if people really thought about that, they would work harder.
Disneyland was a completely different experience, I got in as I was coming home to work on doubling and jazz. At first, I really failed at the movement while playing, it was so hard! This summer was so different from what I had been taught in school. It was a place where jazz, doubling, and showbiz were everything, and perfection was not important. The people I worked with in this band have all gone on to some incredible careers, I’m proud to know them all.
Most importantly with the Disneyland experience, one guy that I worked with on this gig recommended me for BLAST and, after sending a demo, I got in on the Japan tour. Then from that tour, another person I met on BLAST recommended me for Evolution. So really Disneyland catapulted me on a crazy ride to some great gigs. Luckily the dancing part got easier!
How did you get started playing on cruise ships?
Cruise ships are a lot less who you know. There are many agencies out there, and if you’re lucky, you can work direct with the company. Agents usually take a 7–12% cut from each month’s salary, and they have clauses that renew for a few years after each contract. They are cruise-line-specific, so if you have an agent with Holland, you can still go direct with Royal if you get the contact info. Downside: working direct with head office takes a lot of time to get a hold of people. If you want quick or fill in work, an agent is a better way to go.
I kind of went in blind because I didn’t know much about working on ships. I auditioned for an agent and got a gig a month later. I’ve worked with a few agents, but our last contract as a lounge band was direct with head office. For showband, they send you charts an hour or less in advance and you print them out. Then they call you on a landline and you video record the audition. Afterwards, you send the files to them, and they do the video editing and get you a gig. They usually ask for sight reading of a show with tracks and some basic soloing. And they’ll definitely test you on flute and clarinet.
What is day-to-day life like for a cruise musician? What is the best part? What is the worst part?
Typically for showband you will have a rehearsal in the am and then play two shows at night. There also are other sets, like captain’s cocktail (swing big band music) and possibly theme sets. What company you work for has a huge part in how your life is going to be. On Holland, we played 5 hours a day every day, split between Top 40 music and tracked shows (they recently dropped the sax from the instrumentation, the last surviving horn!) Most other companies are lighter. I would say the average work is around 3 hours.
Shows will typically be a couple of production shows with cast singers and dancers (most companies are going the route of tracks these days, and the band has to play with a click track). Then you’ll have a fly-on guest entertainer a couple times a cruise where you read the show in the morning and play it that night. That really helps with sight reading. Lately some companies (Princess) have cut the second sax part, so they ask you to bring tenor, alto, clarinet, and flute out there.
About the lifestyle. There are important factors to consider. For example, IPM, or in port manning means you have to stay on the ship to “protect it” even if you aren’t working. Some companies like Holland had a heavy rotation, every 3-4 days, but Celebrity was once every 3 months or so. And FOOD! Companies vary on whether you can eat upstairs with passengers or not. Believe me, crew food can be brutal. You’ll be sleeping in bunk beds with a roommate, likely a guy from the band. And you will need to have some degree of safety duties. So you want to think about these things when you consider a ship gig.
One good thing is I paid off all my student loans with ships! You can really save because you don’t have to pay rent or buy food. I also travelled all over the world and meet some incredible, adventurous people. We went to Australia, Fiji, Greenland, Alaska, Caribbean, Russia, Norway, Hawaii, Italy, Spain, etc., for free. I also met my husband from Argentina working on ships. Professionally, I had time to really work on my doubling and grow as a musician.
Still, living can become a drag after awhile because ships really have a corporate aspect to them. If a cruise director wants you playing to an empty bar that is not open at 11 am while the ship docks in Rome, you will be doing that. Also, you don’t really have control over the music or the musicians that you are playing with, so it can be really great… or it can stink. Many people on ships work 13-14 hours a day for very little wage so there can be some jealousy towards the entertainment department. Some companies have been pushing the limits to what musician contracts delineate. I was recently on a ship that assigned musicians check in duties at 6:00 AM every week. There has been push back, but I don’t know if the gig is going to keep going this way. It has changed a lot even in the past 10 years.
What advice would you give to a musician who wants to play on cruise ships? for BLAST? shows like Evolution?
To get onboard: practice your doubles, practice your reading, get used to improv (rhythm changes and blues is usually enough for starters), and work on getting a clear, solid jazz sound. I don’t think you will have any problem getting on if you have these skills ready to go.
Once you get there, explore the destinations, and take advantage of this time. For most people, you’ll never get to see the world like this again. Musically, go in there and learn everything that you can. If there is anything that you don’t know how to do, work your butt off and fix it! Also, don’t underestimate the people around you because they can make your life easier, especially in a ship situation. Make friends because you don’t know who’s connected to who. At some point, you will have learned everything that you can get from this gig, and you may began to feel stuck in one place. Don’t become one of those musicians who kept doing the same thing because they’re afraid of moving—find that next step!
BLAST and Evolution sometimes feel to me like luck. But I think they are lessons in basic networking. These aren’t advertised gigs, they are people knowing people. You have to get your foot in the door somehow, and then things will open up. Also, I should point out that my main instrument is saxophone, but for Evolution I barely played that. It helped to be versatile on a few instruments. My main job there was a flute feature while dancing. So really work hard on making each instrument sound as legit as possible, because you may be hired primarily as one of those, and you have to step up to that.
Several of your performance experiences (BLAST, Evolution, the Disney College Band) include movement and dance. Do you enjoy that part of it, or is it just a necessary part of getting to play music? Do you have abilities/experience in these areas that has given you an advantage over other musicians who might have wanted those performing opportunities?
I love it! I love being on stage and being a ham, so that’s really fun. Of course, movement was hard at first. In BLAST, I would come to the hotel every night and put the iPod on in the gym, going through the movements while singing my part. You have to time the movements of big muscles with the small muscles. We also had a part where we used pogo balls and jumped on trampolines while we played, so that took practice. I still am more stiff when performing than I would like to be, probably because I only took dance as a kid and it is hard to keep good air support while jumping in the air.
Players who do marching band would definitely have an advantage at BLAST, and that is something I wished I had when I was growing up. If you haven’t had formal dance training, movement while playing can still be done. You just have to practice it just like you would an instrument.
What part has teaching played in your career? What part do you see it playing in the future?
I really enjoy teaching, especially because I have had to teach myself a lot of things over the course of my career. Another plug for doubling, when I lived in Austin there was not much need of saxophone teachers, so most of my students were middle school clarinetists. That’s an advantage to being a doubler. Wherever you are, you can find a place for yourself among all the other professionals in your area. I would like to teach at the college level, because I feel comfortable in this environment and like to boil things down to a practical level. I’m not a very abstract person. I want my students to be empowered to really achieve things and I also want them to know how to think on their feet and create opportunities for themselves. Looking back, my career has been pretty cool so far, but anybody can do the same thing if they take some risks.
What part has YouTube and other online presence played in your career and development?
I only set up a website this past summer. For a long time, I used YouTube and Myspace for all my promo materials. It wasn’t very organized, but if I wanted a gig I could send links to the specific videos. It’s important to have information online so people can “spy” on you. Now that I book more gigs with my band, the first thing I do before hiring someone is internet search them. It’s a shame how many great players do not have material available. How can I know they are good for our gig if I can’t hear them?
A few years ago, I started putting instructional videos up. I really should do more. It takes effort to get them online. It’s been crazy how many more people come to my channel now! I’ve picked up a few Skype students this way—they will see the video, check out my website, and then go from there. Another part of this is that there is some misinformation there on YouTube. If I can combat it a little of that, then I’ve done something good for the world.
You do non-woodwind things like singing and playing keyboards. Do those things affect or inform your woodwind playing? How? Would your career to this point have turned out differently if you were strictly a woodwind player?
I got into singing when I realized how much better the gig is if you can sing! I also like to front bands, and truthfully was getting bored just playing short lines on sax. Singing is a totally different world. Words, meaning, acting, and connection with the audience are all supremely important. It’s still hard for me to disconnect from mechanics and really convey the song’s meaning. I think this is something that we as instrumentalists often miss, just the simplicity of emotion and the importance of audience-performer connections.
I played piano in high school, but I have gotten really rusty. If I had more time, I’d like to do more jazz piano because it would be cool to be able to accompany myself on a solo gig. But I just can’t find time for it right now. Playing keys on that one cruise contract made me very aware of a mindset difference—as a sax player I play a lick and then hang out. But with piano, you are always there as part of the rhythm section. You really need stamina and a focus towards the people around you, more so than when you’re playing horn. Having some piano skills has also been nice for accompanying students. My career has been mainly woodwinds, but piano is useful when arranging things, and working on singing exercises.
Do you identify as a “doubler?” Is it your intention to play all your instruments equally well, or are there one or more that you would prefer to focus on?
I tend to focus on whatever gig I’m working towards. Its hard to juggle 5+ instruments all the time equally. If it is 3 or more that I need to keep in shape, I rotate instruments with 45 minute practice sessions and I try to get 2-3 hours in a day.
I began as a saxophonist, and that instrument is the easiest for me. It’s what I primarily get gigs with too. But I want to make them as equal as I can. Another caveat, don’t let other people define you. They may see what you are, but only you know where you’re going. At the beginning of every phase (or instrument) in my career, pretty much nobody believed in me. And probably for good reason, because I’m sure I didn’t sound very good! But I practiced my way out of it. I wasn’t going to stay in that place long.
Do you have any favorite woodwind doubling tips?
I know this is common advice, but get rid of the concept of a “doubler” as soon as you can. Whenever I pick up an instrument, I say to myself, I am now a [insert instrument here] player. With flute, I work really hard to match the embouchure to full-time flutists. Don’t take fingering shortcuts— if clarinetists don’t slide their pinkies, don’t form that habit yourself! You have to also hear notes in a different way, the airstream and the shaping inside your mouth will change depending on what instrument you are performing on. Listen to recordings of great players and try to internalize it so it will come out correctly.
We’re really lucky to play multiple instruments. If you can get past the initial feeling of frustration trying to make sounds come out (I sometimes call it the 40-year-old in a 10-year-old body syndrome), you’ll see there is a real advantage to the speed with which we learn things. You already know rhythms, tuning, and many aspects of technique that will cross apply to whatever instrument you are playing.
What instruments do you consider part of your current professional toolbox? What musical styles? Are there others you are working on or would like to add at some point?
Alto, tenor, soprano sax
Bari sax
Flute
Clarinet
Singing
Piccolo
Piano
Bassoon (just started lessons this semester!)
Classical
Jazz
Pop/Rock/R&B
Reading gigs
I have a whole list of instruments that I would buy if I won the lottery!! A better-quality piccolo, my own bari sax, bass clarinet, alto flute, and bassoon. I’m also aiming to take oboe lessons next fall. For a long time, I was wary of double reeds, but bassoon has broken the ice for me. It’s been a lot of fun and I’m enrolled for another semester come January.
I saw some very cool electronic things that musicians were doing on ships on my last contract, and I may someday try to figure out basics of DJing. Not top-40 style, but actually creating electronic patches as music. So much to learn, so little time.
What projects are you working on now?
My jazz group Cambia (formerly Off the Record) is releasing our debut CD on December 11. We’ll have songs online via iTunes, Amazon, and all those great places before Christmas. I play tenor, alto, flute, clarinet, and I have a vocal cameo in the last track so it’s a doubler’s dream. The music is original compositions by myself and my husband (a guitar player). We’re hoping to take this project on the road to a few places next year, so if you stay tuned to my website I will keep updates rolling there.
Do you have time for other interests, hobbies, etc?
I wish! I used to guide rafting tours and I went snowboarding a lot when I lived on the West Coast. I miss it sometimes, but living here in Nebraska makes those hobbies difficult. At this point, I pretty much just do music stuff and follow news and politics obsessively. I like cats. Does that count?
Thank you, Sarah, for taking the time to share your thoughts and experiences!
A. In most cases, no. If you already feel driven to do it, and have the time and resources to devote to it, then maybe.
Q. What’s the trick to getting in enough practice time on all these instruments?
A. Figure out what to de-prioritize in your life to devote more hours to practicing.
Q. What’s the trick to affording all these instruments?
A. Figure out what to de-prioritize in your life to devote more money to instrument purchases.
Q. What instrument/mouthpiece/etc. should I buy?
A. The one that you have carefully, methodically selected from among dozens or more high-quality specimens, without blindly following internet recommendations.
Q. What’s a good mouthpiece, instrument, etc. for a doubler?
A. Only buy things “for doublers” if you want to sound like a doubler. If you want to sound like, say, a good clarinetist, use what good clarinetists use.
Q. Which instrument should I learn next?
A. Whichever motivates you enough to devote the necessary time and money.
Q. Playing one instrument already means it will be easy to learn another, right?
A. If your goal is to develop only a superficial command of the instrument, then yes.
Q. How do I know when I am “good enough” at an instrument to count it as one of my doubles?
A. You stop getting fired for how you sound.
Q. How do I get gigs?
A. Sound great, behave professionally, and be liked by the right people.
A couple of months ago, I wrote this as part of a sort of tongue-in-cheek FAQ:
Q. Should I be a woodwind doubler? A. In most cases, no. If you already feel driven to do it, and have the time and resources to devote to it, then maybe.
I’m a teen who started playing pits last year on flute and piccolo a year ago. Since then, I’ve fallen in love with pit, have played in four more musicals and am actively seeking out other gigs to gain experience. In addition, I’ve also taken up the saxophone and have plans to learn as many woodwinds as I can if not all of them. Do you think I should be a woodwind doubler?
It would be irresponsible to make a recommendation based on so little information, and of course it’s ultimately a very personal choice. I’ve previously suggested some questions worth asking oneself before pursuing woodwind doubling, so I won’t rehash those here.
But I think it’s also worth considering exactly what you mean by being a “woodwind doubler:”
Playing as many instruments as possible?
Playing a select group of instruments?
Playing multiple instruments as a hobby or part-time semi-pro gig?
Studying multiple instruments at a university/conservatory level?
Playing professionally or semi-professionally as a specialist on one instrument, but adding doubles to increase employability?
Competing for the highest-profile doubling gigs in a major market like New York City or Los Angeles?
Performing recital repertoire, orchestral music, and/or chamber music on multiple instruments?
Using multiple instruments in the creation of a unique personal repertoire (jazz, avant-garde, electronic, etc.)?
Your individual goals might include several of these, or others I haven’t listed. And your goals might be a little fuzzy or might change, which is okay. But just “woodwind doubler” isn’t a very clear path. Having some sense of direction might help you make decisions about education and training, investment in instruments, location, practice strategies, and more.
Sometimes I get phone calls from people hoping to hire my students for gigs. I’m delighted when I can pass a professional opportunity on to a hardworking, high-achieving student, but often these calls are troubling.
Obviously, the callers want students because they assume students will work cheaply. Lots of college students work for not much money, as restaurant waitstaff, custodians, babysitters, and so forth. Those jobs don’t pay much because they are (ostensibly) “unskilled” labor. But “musician” is very much a skilled job.
photo, Penn State
Not long ago I was hired to play lead alto saxophone for a gig backing up a singer, and the contractor asked if I had a couple of students who could play in the section. Then he asked what I thought would be fair to pay them. I told him immediately that he was hiring them to do a professional service, and should pay them as professionals. Happily, he saw my point and agreed to those terms.
I suppose some hiring parties assume that students will be cheaper than non-students because they are not as skilled, and therefore can’t negotiate higher fees. (This may or may not be the case—I’ve certainly played gigs with “professionals” who would be far outclassed by undergraduate music students.) Sometimes they want to compensate for hiring less-skilled musicians by planning extensive rehearsals. In most cases, I think they would better spend that same money hiring skilled players to sight-read.
Musicians, enrolled students or not, are specialized, skilled professionals, and should be treated (and compensated) as such.
In 2009, I finished a doctoral degree in music performance, and landed a job at a small university in a rural area. Like many young academics, I assumed it would be a stepping stone.
In those early years, I interviewed for a number of other positions, and generally found that they would be lateral moves. Most of the schools interested in hiring me didn’t pay any better, weren’t any better-located, and didn’t offer a better match for my skills and interests. I stayed long enough to earn tenure, receive a couple of promotions, and carve out a role that suited me well. I also married someone with ties to the region. We bought a house and made plans to stay.
In 2024, the university announced some serious cuts to academic programs as a cost-saving measure. Each degree program was reduced to a series of metrics in a spreadsheet, and sorted by a calculated financial “value.” Music departments don’t fare well under spreadsheet scrutiny, since we do much of our teaching one-on-one or in small groups, and always need more money for scholarships, grand pianos, and travel. My department was cut, and most of the music faculty, including me, were given one terminal year before being laid off.
I didn’t expect to be back on the job market mid-career, but things worked out surprisingly well. During that terminal year, my workload—and frankly, my motivation—lightened enough that I had time to also teach part-time at a not-too-far-away, much larger, and more reputable university, due to the sudden retirement of one of their faculty. That put me in good position to interview for the full-time job when it was listed. I was offered the job, accepted the offer, and started in fall of 2025.
I really couldn’t have been more fortunate about how things worked out, but while things were still up in the air I did find myself facing down some scary realities. While I definitely don’t have all the answers, I’m sharing my experience here in hopes it might be helpful to someone else.
What seems to have helped me was a combination of luck and an understanding of how music professors get hired. The job market is shrinking and shifting; many variables are beyond anyone’s control. But some are not. You can’t control where positions open. You can try to apply where the fit is genuine and make a case for why that fit matters.
My first concern was whether I would find jobs to apply to at all. The academic music job market is bleak—too many qualified folks, not enough positions, and job descriptions that are frustratingly specific. Even for woodwind openings (my area), some required background I don’t have, like in wind conducting, marching band, or music theory.
Then there was the question of where. Preference usually isn’t much of a factor in academic job searches; you go where the job offer is. One possibility I did an early-stage interview for was in an extremely expensive city that would have meant downsizing. Another was in a more affordable area, but with weather that would have meant retooling our entire lifestyle. Finding a good fit less than three hours away—and actually landing it—was far more than I could have hoped for.
There was also the matter of age and rank. While schools aren’t supposed to consider age, it can be an unspoken factor. I have many good teaching years ahead—but not as many as the freshly minted doctorates also applying. (A mentor even suggested shaving my greying beard to look younger.) My rank as a full professor may also have caused concern that I would expect title, salary, or autonomy that some institutions could not accommodate. One job that seemed like a no-brainer fit never progressed to an in-person interview, and the job went to a much younger (excellent and deserving) candidate. I can’t know why, of course, but I have to wonder.
On the other hand, I had the much-in-demand “college teaching experience” required in so many job listings. Having served on and chaired hiring committees, I’ve seen applicants without relevant teaching experience get dumped straight into the “no” pile. (For that reason, I strongly suggest that graduate students seek out teaching assistantships or part-time adjunct positions, even if unglamorous or inconvenient.)
Maybe more importantly, I knew how to frame my candidacy better than when I was a new DMA. In those days I leaned heavily into my nerdy academic interests and my high-minded teaching philosophies. This time, I focused on recruitment strategy, experience working with diverse (and sometimes underprepared) student populations, and a track record of collegiality and flexibility. I tried to present myself as a candidate who could help solve practical problems for my future colleagues and department. Artistic excellence matters, but it’s not enough.
The opportunity to teach part-time at the institution before the full-time search was likely helpful. I built relationships with faculty, and did a lot of driving back and forth to support recruitment events and student performances. I learned the department’s priorities and pressures, and spent those hours on the road thinking about them. Recruitment and growth were central concerns, and I could show that I already had a local recruiting network that aligned with those goals, including former students now teaching in area schools.
My younger self thought artistic excellence would determine my career trajectory, and that tenure would secure it. Mid-career me sees things differently. Tenure is not immunity from institutional change.
I can’t claim to know exactly why I was hired at the new job. Hiring can be kind of a black box. But I do know that I approached the process with a clearer sense of institutional realities, and that I tried to make a case for how I could be useful within them. In a hiring landscape that can feel opaque, that was something I could control.