Clarinet and saxophone embouchures and the “chin”

The chin is much-discussed in clarinet pedagogy. Keith Stein suggests a “stretching” of the chin, making it feel “long and pointed” and “rather hard.” David Pino, a student of Stein’s, echoes this. Jane Ellsworth describes a chin that is “drawn downward” (while the jaw provides a “controlled” “upward pressure.” Michele Gingras advocates a “flat” chin. Bil Jackson indicates that the chin “flattens naturally” when the lip configuration and voicing are correct. Tom Ridenour explains that the chin should be “down and flat” and that this happens “virtually automatically” as a result of proper voicing.

The chin gets somewhat less attention in saxophone teaching, but some pedagogical examples can be found. Larry Teal indicates that the “chin muscles” should support the lower lip (as the jaw drops downward), and Timothy McAllister agrees. Tracy Heavner recommends that the chin muscles be “held flat against the chin” with a sensation of those muscles “pushing … down and away from the body.” Brian Utley advocates a “firm but relaxed [chin] position.”

Most of these sources seem to generally agree that the “chin” (or something) must be flattened or stretched or firmed in some way. Let’s look more closely at exactly what is being described, and how it does or doesn’t differ from the clarinet to the saxophone.

“Chin” is probably not a specific enough term for our purposes. Is it a bony structure? a muscular one? The pedagogical literature is rather unclear and contradictory about exactly how the “chin” moves, and even whether it is actively engaged or whether its movement is a result of some other thing moving.

Additionally, there is a common misconception in single-reed teaching that the lower lip forms a “cushion,” without which the teeth would contact the reed. This creates an embouchure that is formed by pressure from the jaw, with the lips serving passively as a gasket, and the lower lip taking quite a bit of abuse from the lower teeth.

A better way to form the embouchure is to bring the jaw (and teeth, and chin) down, away from the reed, and allow the muscles of the lips to form the embouchure. This moves the effort from the larger, stronger jaw muscles to the smaller but more supple muscles of the lips (of the citations above, Teal’s describes this the most clearly). For early beginners (or those who have played for many years with unnecessary jaw pressure and the resulting shredded lower lip) it may be necessary to gradually develop a little endurance in those muscles.

Taking this approach, it becomes clear that the pointing/stretching/whatever, which is actually mostly jaw movement, must be more extreme for the clarinet than for the saxophone, to accommodate the clarinet’s steeper angle.

Left: clarinet jaw position (more open). Right: saxophone jaw position (less open).
Left: clarinet jaw position (more open). Right: saxophone jaw position (less open). Note that the lower teeth clear the reed; the lip will rise to meet the reed and form a muscle-based (rather than jaw/teeth-based) embouchure.

However, the chin area does have muscles, too, and these play an additional role. The lower lip has an acoustical damping effect on the reed, which plays a role in response, tone quality, and volume. Pulling the muscles around the chin downward around its bony structure (this is independent of jaw movement!) firms the lip slightly, reducing the damping. Allowing the muscles to relax softens the lip, increasing the damping. To take an oversimplified view of one aspect of this, we could say generally that the smaller clarinet requires a slightly firmer lip (and thus less damping) to accommodate its higher frequencies (pitches), while the larger saxophone needs less firmness (more damping) to accommodate its lower ones. Note that firmness of the lower lip should not be confused with overall embouchure “tightness.”

Understanding better the anatomical and acoustical aspects of the “chin” (and, of course, the skeletal and muscular systems that combine there) lead to clearer, more accurate teaching and better single reed playing.

Similar Posts

  • Flute pressure against lip: survey of published opinions

    Disclosure: As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases, at no cost to you.

    My own past flute teachers gave me conflicting advice about how much the flute headjoint should press into the lower lip. One would pull on the crown of my flute while I played to make sure it came away from my lip with no resistance. Another would push the headjoint more firmly into my face as I played. (I improved under both teachers’ approaches.)

    I got curious about it recently and looked up what some flute pedagogues have had to say. I’m presenting my findings here without taking a personal stance (yet).

    It’s a little tricky to parse some of these, since many speak in terms of avoiding too much pressure, but don’t clarify whether that means to use as little pressure as possible or some moderate amount of pressure.

    In the avoid-too-much-pressure camp:

    A very important point to remember is never to force the mouth plate against the lower teeth as such forcing will limit the amount of flexibility after the embouchure has been developed.

    James Pellerite: “Improving Tone Production in Flute Performance,” in Woodwind Anthology, volume I, 1999 edition. Northfield, Illinois: The Instrumentalist, 1999, p. 11. Article originally printed in The Instrumentalist in 1953.

    Do not press the head joint hard against the lips. Control of the tone must come from the lips themselves, not from pressure.

    George Waln, “First Flute Lesson,” in Woodwind Anthology, volume I, 1999 edition. Northfield, Illinois: The Instrumentalist, 1999, p. 25. Article originally printed in The Instrumentalist in 1957.

    “The chin is, of course, an aid in support, but it must not be depended on for support, since pressure against the jaw will seriously disturb the embouchure.”

    Edwin Putnik: The Art of Flute Playing, revised edition. Miami, Florida: Summy-Birchard Inc., 1970, p. 7.

    In order to correct this problem [sharpness/pinching], the student should be certain that he is not pressing the flute against his lower lip, but rather thinking of the flute as resting lightly against the lip…

    Mary Jean Simpson: “Flute Intonation Trouble: Spare Not The Rod,” in Woodwind Anthology, volume I, 1999 edition. Northfield, Illinois: The Instrumentalist, 1999, p. 117. Article originally printed in The Instrumentalist in 1972.

    Do not press the flute too tightly against the chin because too much pressure will alter the tone and pitch.

    Kathleen Goll-Wilson, “Erratic Intonation in Flute Sections,” in Woodwind Anthology, volume I, 1999 edition. Northfield, Illinois: The Instrumentalist, 1999, p. 661. Article originally printed in The Instrumentalist in 1992.

    Excessive pressure against the chin should be avoided.

    William Dietz, Jerry Kirkbride, Hal Ott, Mark Weiger, Craig Whittaker: Teaching Woodwinds: A Method and Resource Handbook for Music Educators. Belmont, California: Schirmer, 1998, p. 174. Note: Hal Ott is the flutist among the authors, so this presumably reflects his opinion.

    …the flute should rest lightly against the chin in order to leave the lips free and flexible.

    Nancy Toff: The Flute Book: A Complete Guide for Students and Performers, third edition. Oxford University Press, 2012, p. 94.

    [Common problems:] Too much pressure into the lip. The teacher should be able to tap the flute off of the lip with very little effort. … [for piccolo:] Too much pressure into the face, especially upper register. Excessive pressure makes high notes much more difficult if not impossible.

    Charles West: Woodwind Methods: An Essential Resource for Educators, Conductors, and Students. Delray Beach, Florida: Meredith Music Publications, 2015, p. 17.

    These are the ones I could find that seemed to advocate for at least some pressure, although neither is explicit about how much:

    Students should keep in mind the three points of pressure… [including] the lips pushing out against the flute…

    John Knight, “Flute Intonation,” in Woodwind Anthology, volume I, 1999 edition. Northfield, Illinois: The Instrumentalist, 1999, p. 529. Article originally printed in The Instrumentalist in 1989.

    “Keep a relaxed embouchure, but place the flute firmly on the chin.”

    Michel Debost: “Basics of Flute Playing,” in Woodwind Anthology, volume I, 1999 edition. Northfield, Illinois: The Instrumentalist, 1999, p. 632. Article originally printed in The Instrumentalist in 1991.

    John Knight is the only author to speak in terms of the lips putting pressure on the flute, rather than the reverse.

    In any case, among the sources I consulted, there seems to be some consensus that pressure of flute against lip should be light, or at least not “excessive.”

  • Quick tip: learn tenor clef

    Disclosure: As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases, at no cost to you.

    tenor clefIf you’re going to be serious about playing the bassoon, reading tenor clef is a requirement.

    If you’re unfamiliar with it, click through to Mike Spark’s website for a quick primer [update: link dead].

    If you could use a little practice reading the notes, try eMusicTheory.com’s C-clef trainer. Click on “Settings…,” choose “Tenor clef,” and click “OK,” then click “Start Drill.”

    The next step, of course, is to get your fingers to do their thing automatically as you read the tenor clef notes. Try Oubradous for a gentle introduction, then move on to the Milde “Studies in All Keys” Op. 24 (also found in this edition of the Weissenborn method) for a more serious workout.

  • Fact and fiction in woodwind teaching

    A former teacher, who, I hasten to point out, I respect and admire greatly, once asked me in a lesson to “spin the air.”

    I hadn’t the foggiest idea what he meant.

    I tried a few things that I thought maybe the teacher had in mind, but none of them was right. I asked for clarification.

    He said, “It’s like this,” and he blew a puff of air while twirling his finger around (presumably to indicate spinning).

    Surely he didn’t mean literally to cause the air, somehow, to leave my lips in some kind of spiral. I confessed my confusion and asked if he would be kind enough to demonstrate spinning the air versus not spinning the air. He obliged.

    I couldn’t detect any difference. Read More “Fact and fiction in woodwind teaching”

  • Using “borrowed” fingerings in EWI mode

    The Akai EWI series’ “EWI” fingering mode is powerful and flexible. It bears a resemblance to basic saxophone fingerings (while wisely eschewing saxophoney compromises like rollers and palm keys). But with a little imagination EWI players can “borrow” a number of useful fingerings from other woodwinds, too.

    For clarity, I’m considering any fingering that appears in the EWI 4000s’s Reference Manual under “EWI Fingerings” as a basic, non-borrowed fingering. Some of the fingerings I’m listing do appear in the manual for other fingering modes (saxophone, flute, and oboe). Some of the fingerings aren’t great-sounding fingerings on the “real” (non-electric) woodwind instruments, but work beautifully on the EWI, which of course isn’t subject to the acoustical problems of air-filled tubes.

    And of course these fingerings work in any octave, which is not always the case with “real” woodwinds. I have arranged them octave-wise here in ways that will mostly look familiar to woodwind players.

    Right C-sharp
    Borrowed from: oboe, clarinet
    Provides a useful alternative in left-hand-pinky-heavy passages.

    Left E-flat
    Borrowed from: oboe, some clarinets
    In the example, prevents having to “jump” the right pinky from one key, over another, to another.

    Side F-sharp
    Borrowed from: saxophone, clarinet
    Similar to using the saxophone’s side F-sharp key or clarinet’s side F-sharp(/B-natural) key (shown here in the wrong octave for clarinet), except using the right pinky rather than the ring finger. Useful for avoiding the right index-middle flip-flop.

    Right G-sharp
    Borrowed from: oboe
    Provides a useful alternative in left-hand-pinky-heavy passages.

    1+1 B-flat
    Borrowed from: flute, saxophone, clarinet
    Similar to a standard flute fingering, or to a problematic saxophone or clarinet alternate fingering (shown here in the wrong octave for clarinet). Of course on the EWI there are no pitch, timbre, or response issues with this (or any) fingering.

    1+2 B-flat
    Borrowed from: saxophone
    A slightly lesser-known alternate fingering for saxophone (which, on saxophones, often sounds better than 1+1). Useful for transitions such as F-sharp to B-flat.

    Right B
    Borrowed from: clarinet
    Similar to the sensation of using the clarinet’s right B(/E) key, but in this case you must use the right pinky to press two keys at once. In the example, this allows you to keep the movement in one hand, rather than having to coordinate both pinkies.

    Side C
    Borrowed from: saxophone
    Useful in chromatic passages and trills for avoiding the left index-middle flip-flop.

    These fingerings of course only scratch the surface of what’s possible with the EWI-mode fingering system. But because of their familiarity and time-tested usefulness to players of “real” woodwinds, they can be adapted easily and fruitfully to EWI playing.

  • Woodwind Doubler Census 2021 results, part 3: training/education

    Thanks to all who participated in my 2021 woodwind doubling survey, and to those who helped spread the word. I’m releasing the results in installments, so be sure to use my social media links, RSS feeds, etc. to keep up.

    I got 284 responses, an improvement over 2011’s 187. The numbers for each of these questions don’t necessarily add up to exactly that number, since not everybody responded to every question.

    Which was your first instrument, among the major woodwinds?

    2021 Data
    flute 37 13%
    oboe 13 5%
    clarinet 106 38%
    bassoon 6 2%
    saxophone 119 42%
    none of these apply 1 ~0%

    2011 Data
    flute 22 12%
    oboe 10 5%
    clarinet 77 41%
    bassoon 5 3%
    saxophone 73 39%

    Which of these have been part of your education on woodwind instruments?

    2021 Data
    school band/orchestra program (high school or younger) 262 93%
    private lessons outside of school 248 88%
    summer camps 188 67%
    university band/orchestra program 241 85%
    university/conservatory bachelors degree with formal concentration(s) in multiple woodwinds 27 10%
    university/conservatory bachelors degree with single-instrument or other music concentration 182 65%
    bachelors-level study on secondary instrument(s), but not as part of a formal multiple-woodwinds program 111 39%
    university/conservatory masters degree with formal concentration(s) in multiple woodwinds 35 12%
    university/conservatory masters degree with single-instrument or other music concentration 75 27%
    masters-level study on secondary instrument(s), but not as part of a formal multiple-woodwinds program 31 11%
    university/conservatory doctoral degree with formal concentration(s) in multiple woodwinds 10 4%
    university/conservatory doctoral degree with single-instrument or other music concentration 24 9%
    doctoral-level study on secondary instrument(s), but not as part of a formal multiple-woodwinds program 6 2%
    other university/conservatory music degree or certification 14 5%
    self-taught on one or more instruments 167 59%

    2011 Data
    school band/orchestra program (high school or younger) 175 94%
    private lessons outside of school 170 91%
    summer camps 131 70%
    university band/orchestra program 143 76%
    university/conservatory bachelors degree with formal concentration(s) in multiple woodwinds 27 14%
    university/conservatory bachelors degree with single-instrument or other music concentration 97 52%
    university/conservatory masters degree with formal concentration(s) in multiple woodwinds 13 7%
    university/conservatory masters degree with single-instrument or other music concentration 37 20%
    university/conservatory doctoral degree with formal concentration(s) in multiple woodwinds 4 2%
    university/conservatory doctoral degree with single-instrument or other music concentration 5 3%
    other university/conservatory music degree or certification 12 6%
    self-taught on one or more instruments 118 63%

    What factors influenced you first to get involved in woodwind doubling?

    Besides the provided answers, several of you included personal anecdotes of influences including boredom, norms of the early music scene, orthodontia and injuries, career aspirations like instrument repair and studio work, and the Lawrence Welk Show.

    2021 data
    just interested in more than one instrument 202 72%
    required/helpful for a jazz (or other improvisatory music) group you played in or wanted to play in 139 49%
    had or wanted opportunities to play for musical theater 196 70%
    influenced by a teacher or role model 136 48%
    wanted to improve employability 138 49%
    an ensemble you were in (or wanted to be in) needed someone to play a specific instrument, and you were willing to learn it 118 42%
    an ensemble you were in (or wanted to be in) didn’t include the instrument you already played and you needed to learn another 46 16%
    your training/experience as a teacher required you to branch out 56 20%

    2011 Data
    just interested in more than one instrument 40
    required/helpful for a jazz (or other improvisatory music) group you played in or wanted to play in 37
    had or wanted opportunities to play for musical theater 35
    influenced by a teacher or role model 23
    wanted to improve employability 19
    an ensemble you were in (or wanted to be in) needed someone to play a specific instrument, and you were willing to learn it 19
    your training/experience as a teacher required you to branch out 9

    What sources have you used to learn about or otherwise engage with woodwind doubling?

    Besides the provided answers, nine of you wrote in something to the effect of “lessons” or “teachers,” which I didn’t include as an option because I covered formal training in other questions. A few of you also wrote in “YouTube,” which I have lumped in with “social media sites.”

    Thanks again for your participation and stay tuned for more survey results.

  • Clarinet/saxophone doubling and “loose” and “tight” embouchures

    I have been watching with dismay some recent online message board conversations about clarinetists picking up the saxophone and saxophonists picking up the clarinet. I am of course a big supporter of doubling, but much of the discussion seems to center around embouchure, and the language used is not only misleading but also vaguely pejorative. Clarinetists seem to regard the saxophone embouchure as “loose,” a term I think most saxophonists would take exception to, and saxophonists consider the clarinet embouchure to be “tight,” a concept I would expect clarinetists to shy away from.

    Photo, Adrian Midgley
    Photo, Adrian Midgley

    I am not aware of any difference in looseness/tightness between the embouchures of the two instrument families, and can’t think of a reason why there should be one. In both cases, the embouchure—the lips and surrounding facial muscles—need to be “tight” enough to form a non-leaking seal around the mouthpiece and reed, and “loose” enough to allow the reed to vibrate at the desired amplitude (volume). The most common looseness/tightness problem I see in teaching both instruments is excessive tightness, often used in an attempt to compensate for pitch stability problems caused by poor breath support, and resulting in sluggish response, restricted dynamic range, and stuffy tone. Read More “Clarinet/saxophone doubling and “loose” and “tight” embouchures”

4 Comments

  1. <>

    Hi Bret, I enjoy the breadth of your blog. I believe that a careful study of the physics involved demonstrates that the lips are a gasket exactly, regardless of how the structure is “believed”. The common misconception is actually that the lower lip need take any “abuse” from the teeth. The single reed embouchure (single or double lipped) is fundamentally different than the double reed embouchure. In holding single reed the same principle as holding a pencil (and the same muscular exertion) is employed. The abdominal muscles controlling the air stream and the jaw muscles manipulating the distance between the reed and the mouthpiece are the two factors involved in single reed sound production. The reed is controlled by the amount of pressure, the location of pressure and the speed and volume of air.
    I usually don’t comment in this sort of forum, but you do some nice academic work here and I appreciate the effort. I don’t mean to engage in controversy, and I freely admit I got most of this from Joe Allard years ago, but the most simple solution is often the most effective.

  2. I never was able to produce the flat chin demanded by my clarinet teacher back in my school days. Years later, after hours in front of mirrors or just sitting around trying to form the desired shape, I’ve decided the relative positions of my jaw and teeth result in it being physically impossible for me to get a textbook flat chin. Maybe it’s a good thing I had no aspirations to be a pro!

    Bad things happen if I try to play clarinet with a sax embouchure or vice versa. My clarinet embouchure is firmer, especially just below the corners of the mouth. The area at the front of the chin is firmer. I especially notice the differences when I brush up on doubles I play less commonly, such as soprano sax, bari sax or bass clarinet. I’m not sure if it’s the result of different muscles being used or the same muscles being set in a different position.

    Think of the effect of mouthpiece angle, what is your recommended angle for a straight soprano sax? It seems to me the angle has to be between that of the lower saxes, but higher than the clarinet.

    1. I can’t see any (tone-production-related) reason for the angle on a straight soprano to be different from that of a curved soprano, or any other saxophone for that matter.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

Comments that take a negative or confrontational tone are subject to email and name verification before being approved. In other words: no anonymous trolls allowed—take responsibility for your words.

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.