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> <channel><title>Comments on: Does material affect tone quality in woodwind instruments?: Why scientists and musicians just can’t seem to agree</title> <atom:link href="http://bretpimentel.com/does-material-affect-tone-quality-in-woodwind-instruments-why-scientists-and-musicians-just-cant-seem-to-agree/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" /><link>http://bretpimentel.com/does-material-affect-tone-quality-in-woodwind-instruments-why-scientists-and-musicians-just-cant-seem-to-agree/</link> <description>Saxophone, flute, oboe, clarinet, bassoon, folk and ethnic woodwinds</description> <lastBuildDate>Thu, 02 Feb 2012 21:51:56 +0000</lastBuildDate> <sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod> <sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency> <generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=</generator> <item><title>By: Michal Kopecky</title><link>http://bretpimentel.com/does-material-affect-tone-quality-in-woodwind-instruments-why-scientists-and-musicians-just-cant-seem-to-agree/#comment-2221</link> <dc:creator>Michal Kopecky</dc:creator> <pubDate>Mon, 29 Aug 2011 12:30:58 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://bretpimentel.com/blog/?p=581#comment-2221</guid> <description>&quot;True enough, but the material that sets the vibration in motion and the material against which the vibrating air moves does affect the quality of the sound. Consider a gong. Would it sound the same if made of plastic? No! It’s the brass of the gong that initiates the vibration of the surrounding air, giving it the quality of the sound that you hear.&quot;In case of woodwind instruments the material that sets the vibration in motion is the wooden reed mounted on your mouthpiece. Destpite of the fact that the saxophone is made of brass which is metal, it is categorised as woodwind instrument, because the sound vibration is created by a wooden reed. The material of which a woodwind instrument is made only shapes the sound column. When the soundwave leaves the instrument it has certain wavelenght and frequency. And these two properties are not affected by the body material of the woodwind instrument. But shape of the body and expecially the shape of the mouthpiece and the quality and material of  the reed affect this absolutely. Sorry for my english.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;True enough, but the material that sets the vibration in motion and the material against which the vibrating air moves does affect the quality of the sound. Consider a gong. Would it sound the same if made of plastic? No! It’s the brass of the gong that initiates the vibration of the surrounding air, giving it the quality of the sound that you hear.&#8221;</p><p>In case of woodwind instruments the material that sets the vibration in motion is the wooden reed mounted on your mouthpiece. Destpite of the fact that the saxophone is made of brass which is metal, it is categorised as woodwind instrument, because the sound vibration is created by a wooden reed. The material of which a woodwind instrument is made only shapes the sound column. When the soundwave leaves the instrument it has certain wavelenght and frequency. And these two properties are not affected by the body material of the woodwind instrument. But shape of the body and expecially the shape of the mouthpiece and the quality and material of  the reed affect this absolutely. Sorry for my english.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Art Marshall</title><link>http://bretpimentel.com/does-material-affect-tone-quality-in-woodwind-instruments-why-scientists-and-musicians-just-cant-seem-to-agree/#comment-2216</link> <dc:creator>Art Marshall</dc:creator> <pubDate>Tue, 23 Aug 2011 18:06:19 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://bretpimentel.com/blog/?p=581#comment-2216</guid> <description>This subject is highly interesting; I agree with Dan Kennedy. The smoother the inside bore of the clarinet is, the better it sounds. Plastic bodies can be extremely smooth. The drawback of a plastic clarinet is however, that the body is not so much affected by the surrounding temperature as wooden clarinets. So when the pitch of the wooden clarinet is going up during playing, the plastic one does no go up in  pitc at teh same rate.  i notice that when playing duets with my students. I play German system  Wurlitzers and I alwya wonder how it is that my good studenst are able to draw a good sound from their plastic Buffets or Bundys.  In temperate climate zones this duet playing needs a fequent intervals of retuning. Art Marshall</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This subject is highly interesting; I agree with Dan Kennedy. The smoother the inside bore of the clarinet is, the better it sounds. Plastic bodies can be extremely smooth. The drawback of a plastic clarinet is however, that the body is not so much affected by the surrounding temperature as wooden clarinets. So when the pitch of the wooden clarinet is going up during playing, the plastic one does no go up in  pitc at teh same rate.  i notice that when playing duets with my students. I play German system  Wurlitzers and I alwya wonder how it is that my good studenst are able to draw a good sound from their plastic Buffets or Bundys.  In temperate climate zones this duet playing needs a fequent intervals of retuning. Art Marshall</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Dan Kennedy</title><link>http://bretpimentel.com/does-material-affect-tone-quality-in-woodwind-instruments-why-scientists-and-musicians-just-cant-seem-to-agree/#comment-2205</link> <dc:creator>Dan Kennedy</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sun, 07 Aug 2011 14:42:28 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://bretpimentel.com/blog/?p=581#comment-2205</guid> <description>I was wondering if the way in which breath moisture condenses  on the bore of a clarinet affects the sound.I coated the inside of my Selmer Series 10 clarinet with a 50/50 mixture of liquid dish soap and water.  I did not like the way it played.Removing the coating and re-oiling the clarinet returned it&#039;s fine sound.Plastic Clarinets are sold with a mirror like bore.  I have found that removing this mirror like finish with very fine (0000) steel wool improves the sound. (I only do this when I am repadding the clarinet.)Perhaps clarinet makers hobble plastic clarinets so as not to interfer
with the sales of &quot;Professional&quot; wooden clarinets.If I was buying a new clarinet it would be a Buffet Greenline.Then I could say to players with a traditional clarinet:&quot;That sounds good; too bad it&#039;s made of wood&quot;Dan Kennedy</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was wondering if the way in which breath moisture condenses  on the bore of a clarinet affects the sound.</p><p> I coated the inside of my Selmer Series 10 clarinet with a 50/50 mixture of liquid dish soap and water.  I did not like the way it played.</p><p>Removing the coating and re-oiling the clarinet returned it&#8217;s fine sound.</p><p>Plastic Clarinets are sold with a mirror like bore.  I have found that removing this mirror like finish with very fine (0000) steel wool improves the sound. (I only do this when I am repadding the clarinet.)</p><p>Perhaps clarinet makers hobble plastic clarinets so as not to interfer<br
/> with the sales of &#8220;Professional&#8221; wooden clarinets.</p><p>If I was buying a new clarinet it would be a Buffet Greenline.</p><p>Then I could say to players with a traditional clarinet:</p><p>&#8220;That sounds good; too bad it&#8217;s made of wood&#8221;</p><p>Dan Kennedy</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: John Clemmer</title><link>http://bretpimentel.com/does-material-affect-tone-quality-in-woodwind-instruments-why-scientists-and-musicians-just-cant-seem-to-agree/#comment-2197</link> <dc:creator>John Clemmer</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sat, 23 Jul 2011 11:51:39 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://bretpimentel.com/blog/?p=581#comment-2197</guid> <description>What? No comment on reeds and mouthpieces??!! And CHOPS??? I was with a friend one day in a music shop, and he took his mouthpiece, put it on a metal clarinet that looked like an old beaten up lamp, and proceeded to fill the store with the most beautiful clarinet voice imaginable. I&#039;ll never forget that day, it was magic!</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What? No comment on reeds and mouthpieces??!! And CHOPS??? I was with a friend one day in a music shop, and he took his mouthpiece, put it on a metal clarinet that looked like an old beaten up lamp, and proceeded to fill the store with the most beautiful clarinet voice imaginable. I&#8217;ll never forget that day, it was magic!</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Daniel McBrearty</title><link>http://bretpimentel.com/does-material-affect-tone-quality-in-woodwind-instruments-why-scientists-and-musicians-just-cant-seem-to-agree/#comment-2193</link> <dc:creator>Daniel McBrearty</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 22 Jul 2011 23:18:39 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://bretpimentel.com/blog/?p=581#comment-2193</guid> <description>For years I have played a brass SML tenor sax, lacquered, dating from the early 60s.  A fine instrument with a big sound.A few years back I came across another in a market, bought it and had it serviced so that iit played perfectly. An identical instrument, except it was chrome (yes chrome not silver) plated.I could not tell the difference between the sounds of them.I now own two Selmer 10S clarinets. There *is* a slight sound difference - but I think that may because one has leather pads, the other the more usual white ones. That one is going to get a repad ...</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For years I have played a brass SML tenor sax, lacquered, dating from the early 60s.  A fine instrument with a big sound.</p><p>A few years back I came across another in a market, bought it and had it serviced so that iit played perfectly. An identical instrument, except it was chrome (yes chrome not silver) plated.</p><p>I could not tell the difference between the sounds of them.</p><p>I now own two Selmer 10S clarinets. There *is* a slight sound difference &#8211; but I think that may because one has leather pads, the other the more usual white ones. That one is going to get a repad &#8230;</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Bret</title><link>http://bretpimentel.com/does-material-affect-tone-quality-in-woodwind-instruments-why-scientists-and-musicians-just-cant-seem-to-agree/#comment-2192</link> <dc:creator>Bret</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 22 Jul 2011 15:30:06 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://bretpimentel.com/blog/?p=581#comment-2192</guid> <description>Thanks for your comments. I have to disagree with you on a few points, based on my reading of Benade and others regarding the physics of woodwinds. Again, I&#039;m not a real scientist, so I welcome any clarifications of concepts I may have misunderstood.I agree that in the case of a gong, which is an &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornbostel-Sachs#Idiophones_.281.29&quot;&gt;idiophone&lt;/a&gt;, the vibrations of the material itself are significant. But in the case of a flute (for example), which is an &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornbostel-Sachs#Aerophones_.284.29&quot;&gt;aerophone&lt;/a&gt;, I maintain that the material does not &quot;set the vibration in motion&quot; (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/fluteacoustics.html&quot;&gt;Dr. Joe Wolfe gives an excellent summary of how this actually works&lt;/a&gt;); nor does the material interact in a significant way with the air column, other than to give it its shape (see Backus&#039;s article, &quot;Effect of Wall Material on the Steady-State Tone Quality of Woodwind Instruments, &lt;a href=&quot;http://asadl.org/jasa/&quot;&gt;JASA&lt;/a&gt;, October 1964, which specifically addresses this point. To my knowledge, this article is not freely available online, but check your local library).No doubt Coltman would have preferred to use flutes made entirely of the same material for his experiment. But this would have created an even more fallacious result, since, as you and I know, every headjoint plays differently. There&#039;s no verifiable scientific evidence (yet?) that the material of the headjoint have the &quot;most impact&quot; on tone. (However, there is a great deal of advertising from headjoint makers that makes this claim, invariably suggesting that the most shiny and expensive metals sound the best.)I do think you make a good point about the care that instruments made from nicer materials are likely to receive.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your comments. I have to disagree with you on a few points, based on my reading of Benade and others regarding the physics of woodwinds. Again, I&#8217;m not a real scientist, so I welcome any clarifications of concepts I may have misunderstood.</p><p>I agree that in the case of a gong, which is an <a
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornbostel-Sachs#Idiophones_.281.29">idiophone</a>, the vibrations of the material itself are significant. But in the case of a flute (for example), which is an <a
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornbostel-Sachs#Aerophones_.284.29">aerophone</a>, I maintain that the material does not &#8220;set the vibration in motion&#8221; (<a
href="http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/fluteacoustics.html">Dr. Joe Wolfe gives an excellent summary of how this actually works</a>); nor does the material interact in a significant way with the air column, other than to give it its shape (see Backus&#8217;s article, &#8220;Effect of Wall Material on the Steady-State Tone Quality of Woodwind Instruments, <a
href="http://asadl.org/jasa/">JASA</a>, October 1964, which specifically addresses this point. To my knowledge, this article is not freely available online, but check your local library).</p><p>No doubt Coltman would have preferred to use flutes made entirely of the same material for his experiment. But this would have created an even more fallacious result, since, as you and I know, every headjoint plays differently. There&#8217;s no verifiable scientific evidence (yet?) that the material of the headjoint have the &#8220;most impact&#8221; on tone. (However, there is a great deal of advertising from headjoint makers that makes this claim, invariably suggesting that the most shiny and expensive metals sound the best.)</p><p>I do think you make a good point about the care that instruments made from nicer materials are likely to receive.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Linn</title><link>http://bretpimentel.com/does-material-affect-tone-quality-in-woodwind-instruments-why-scientists-and-musicians-just-cant-seem-to-agree/#comment-2190</link> <dc:creator>Linn</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 22 Jul 2011 14:55:57 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://bretpimentel.com/blog/?p=581#comment-2190</guid> <description>A great article!  Thanks for sharing it.I have a few observations I&#039;d like to add.&quot;The mistake here, according to scientists, is thinking that the vibrating instrument is what is producing the sound. Basic acoustics tells us that the woodwind instrument is merely a container for the real sound-producing body—a vibrating column of air.&quot;True enough, but the material that sets the vibration in motion and the material against which the vibrating air moves does affect the quality of the sound.  Consider a gong.  Would it sound the same if made of plastic?  No!  It&#039;s the brass of the gong that initiates the vibration of the surrounding air, giving it the quality of the sound that you hear.The fallacy of Coltman&#039;s experiment with flute tubes of different materials was his use of a plastic headjoint.  The headjoint, more specifically the riser, has the most impact on the sound produced by the instrument.  If he had used headjoints constructed of the same materials as the tubes, there probably would have been a more noticeable difference.  He could easily have blindfolded the players and hidden the headjoints from view of the listeners to attain as much anonymity as he needed without using the plastic headjoints.I agree that &quot;It is also possible that the vibration of the instrument’s body is, in fact, audible to the player through the phenomenon of bone conduction.&quot;  I tell my students this all the time.  Just as a singer (or speaker) hears their voice differently from the listener, so, too does the instrumentalist.&quot;But the most convincing theory of why musicians are so sure about gold flutes and maple bassoons is that the materials do, in many ways, affect the way the player feels. And, as any musician will tell you, nothing affects the music more than the way the musician feels. The smooth, polished wood of a fine oboe, the patina of the silver keys, even the gold of the maker’s emblem, lend the oboist confidence, comfort, perhaps a sense of luxury?—that come through in the way he or she plays.&#039;True again.  Additionally, one is more apt to take better care of a quality instrument - regular cleanings, keeping it in good adjustment, handling it with care - than one would a student model horn.  This adds to the better quality of sound produced.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A great article!  Thanks for sharing it.</p><p>I have a few observations I&#8217;d like to add.</p><p>&#8220;The mistake here, according to scientists, is thinking that the vibrating instrument is what is producing the sound. Basic acoustics tells us that the woodwind instrument is merely a container for the real sound-producing body—a vibrating column of air.&#8221;</p><p>True enough, but the material that sets the vibration in motion and the material against which the vibrating air moves does affect the quality of the sound.  Consider a gong.  Would it sound the same if made of plastic?  No!  It&#8217;s the brass of the gong that initiates the vibration of the surrounding air, giving it the quality of the sound that you hear.</p><p>The fallacy of Coltman&#8217;s experiment with flute tubes of different materials was his use of a plastic headjoint.  The headjoint, more specifically the riser, has the most impact on the sound produced by the instrument.  If he had used headjoints constructed of the same materials as the tubes, there probably would have been a more noticeable difference.  He could easily have blindfolded the players and hidden the headjoints from view of the listeners to attain as much anonymity as he needed without using the plastic headjoints.</p><p>I agree that &#8220;It is also possible that the vibration of the instrument’s body is, in fact, audible to the player through the phenomenon of bone conduction.&#8221;  I tell my students this all the time.  Just as a singer (or speaker) hears their voice differently from the listener, so, too does the instrumentalist.</p><p>&#8220;But the most convincing theory of why musicians are so sure about gold flutes and maple bassoons is that the materials do, in many ways, affect the way the player feels. And, as any musician will tell you, nothing affects the music more than the way the musician feels. The smooth, polished wood of a fine oboe, the patina of the silver keys, even the gold of the maker’s emblem, lend the oboist confidence, comfort, perhaps a sense of luxury?—that come through in the way he or she plays.&#8217;</p><p>True again.  Additionally, one is more apt to take better care of a quality instrument &#8211; regular cleanings, keeping it in good adjustment, handling it with care &#8211; than one would a student model horn.  This adds to the better quality of sound produced.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Nathan Zalman</title><link>http://bretpimentel.com/does-material-affect-tone-quality-in-woodwind-instruments-why-scientists-and-musicians-just-cant-seem-to-agree/#comment-2072</link> <dc:creator>Nathan Zalman</dc:creator> <pubDate>Tue, 01 Mar 2011 14:42:20 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://bretpimentel.com/blog/?p=581#comment-2072</guid> <description>An former teacher of mine, bassoonist Ted Lapina,  played a plastic Polisi bassoon while I knew him at Shenandoah. He insisted that it played better than any holy Heckel he&#039;d ever played. His bassoon playing colleagues were scandalized, of course, but he stuck to his guns.  I learned a healthy skepticism from him, back in the day.Thanks for a well written summary of this debate, which rages on and on and on and on. . .</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An former teacher of mine, bassoonist Ted Lapina,  played a plastic Polisi bassoon while I knew him at Shenandoah. He insisted that it played better than any holy Heckel he&#8217;d ever played. His bassoon playing colleagues were scandalized, of course, but he stuck to his guns.  I learned a healthy skepticism from him, back in the day.</p><p>Thanks for a well written summary of this debate, which rages on and on and on and on. . .</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: John Malmstrom</title><link>http://bretpimentel.com/does-material-affect-tone-quality-in-woodwind-instruments-why-scientists-and-musicians-just-cant-seem-to-agree/#comment-1729</link> <dc:creator>John Malmstrom</dc:creator> <pubDate>Tue, 14 Dec 2010 14:08:53 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://bretpimentel.com/blog/?p=581#comment-1729</guid> <description>A few years ago, I purchased a vintage metal clarinet to serve as an emergency back-up for my trusty Buffet R-13. I did some research and found that there&#039;s a range of quality in metal clarinets, like any other instrument and I found one that might be classified as a low-pro level horn. I&#039;ve asked my friends close their eyes and  identify which one I was playing -- no one could tell. It&#039;s a fun instrument to play -- and it&#039;s real shiny!</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A few years ago, I purchased a vintage metal clarinet to serve as an emergency back-up for my trusty Buffet R-13. I did some research and found that there&#8217;s a range of quality in metal clarinets, like any other instrument and I found one that might be classified as a low-pro level horn. I&#8217;ve asked my friends close their eyes and  identify which one I was playing &#8212; no one could tell. It&#8217;s a fun instrument to play &#8212; and it&#8217;s real shiny!</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Ricardo Faissal</title><link>http://bretpimentel.com/does-material-affect-tone-quality-in-woodwind-instruments-why-scientists-and-musicians-just-cant-seem-to-agree/#comment-1429</link> <dc:creator>Ricardo Faissal</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 19 Nov 2010 16:37:10 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://bretpimentel.com/blog/?p=581#comment-1429</guid> <description>&quot;Maybe some musicians have spent time enough with  instruments to be able to feel the 1 to 2 percent difference that scientists proved does exist, but can&#039;t feel, between instruments of different materials.&quot;</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Maybe some musicians have spent time enough with  instruments to be able to feel the 1 to 2 percent difference that scientists proved does exist, but can&#8217;t feel, between instruments of different materials.&#8221;</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> </channel> </rss>
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